What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

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What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Oliver Geisser
Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing "production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og

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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Bouiaw
Alternatives we use are :
 - Jetty-run + debugger attachement
 - Netbeans ;-)
 - WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
performance
 - Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
for better performance

Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
one. I understand why they do that :
 - Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
 - Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
Maven webapp support.
 - WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view

From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
"web application development will continue to be buggy with
Maven/Eclipse".

Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
even it is technically wrong.

Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
 - Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
 - Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
 - Just works and have a real coherence

It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.

You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
and you would be partially right, but the current very low
contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
open source production quality webapp support.

You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
to pay.

This won't work.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
> WTP integration
> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>
> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>
> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
> "production
> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>
> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>
> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
> experiences (good/bad)?
>
> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>
> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
> WTP for
> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>
> Thanks
>
> Olli
>
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>
> --
> og
>
>

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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Geisser

On May 26, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser wrote:

Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing "production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Nexus is server-based which offers up a set of REST resources. The Nexus web front-end is really Javascript-based REST client, so for us we have an Eclipse plugin that we wrote that starts up Nexus and we work directly against the REST resources. We just use Jetty directly.


Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og


Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

To do two things at once is to do neither.
 
 -—Publilius Syrus, Roman slave, first century B.C.



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Timothy Mcginnis

From Oliver's email do understand correctly that a pay-for version of M2Eclipse 1.0 will have WTP support?

Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Jason van Zyl" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/26/2010 02:48 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration






On May 26, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser wrote:

Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing "production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?


Nexus is server-based which offers up a set of REST resources. The Nexus web front-end is really Javascript-based REST client, so for us we have an Eclipse plugin that we wrote that starts up Nexus and we work directly against the REST resources. We just use Jetty directly.


Thanks

Olli


[1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og


Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven

http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------


To do two things at once is to do neither.

-—Publilius Syrus, Roman slave, first century B.C.





==============================================================================
This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the above addressees only.  If you
receive this message in error please delete or destroy this message and/or attachments.  

The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging
in the unauthorized use of this message.
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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2

On May 26, 2010, at 8:57 PM, Timothy Mcginnis wrote:


From Oliver's email do understand correctly that a pay-for version of M2Eclipse 1.0 will have WTP support?

No. It won't. We're working on Tomcat integration first. We will likely stay away from WTP as long as possible to be honest. I was actually looking at Cargo as the basis for our abstraction if we were to use anything. In much the same way that we open sourced the LDAP integration in Nexus we may do this with the webapp support we create. But we develop it commercially first and if we can we move things out into open source. 


Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Jason van Zyl" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/26/2010 02:48 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration






On May 26, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser wrote:

Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing "production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?


Nexus is server-based which offers up a set of REST resources. The Nexus web front-end is really Javascript-based REST client, so for us we have an Eclipse plugin that we wrote that starts up Nexus and we work directly against the REST resources. We just use Jetty directly.


Thanks

Olli


[1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og


Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven

http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------


To do two things at once is to do neither.

-—Publilius Syrus, Roman slave, first century B.C.






==============================================================================
This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the above addressees only.  If you
receive this message in error please delete or destroy this message and/or attachments.  

The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging
in the unauthorized use of this message.
==============================================================================


Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.

 -- Unknown



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Bouiaw
I already know selling it will work, we have customers who will pay for it and it would be a viable product. Just look at MyEclipse. WTP sucks, they sort of fixed it and it sells like crazy. We're actually a few steps ahead in that argument already. We want to provide good support if we can, but we need to find a way to recover our costs which is how we operate. This is what ensure we can continue to work on all the things we do, being judicious with resources. And WTP is a huge suck hole of money and time. If we release anything it's probably not going to be WTP-based.

But your argument that we have done all this work for the community (we're into the millions of dollars at this point) and so that logically extends to us doing more is ridiculous. What would you do if Sonatype wasn't here? And that's the way you should really think. We're not here to do everything for you for free. We're here to help where we can and in a way that makes sense for us to survive as a company. It might even be argued that the community would actually be more active if we stopped doing everything all together. Sometimes I think we've done a disservice by making people overly reliant on us.

Your argument is frankly offensive. To reason that we're obliged to something for free because we always have to me a selfish way of asking for you want without having to pay for anything or contributing anything. People who value the work of others usually don't forward ill formed ideas to public forums. As far as I know you've never contributed anything to this project so you have even less right to make such statements. You always complain and ask for release dates so you are type of user I find non-constructive and useless in a community like this. You seem to think this is a product where you have actually paid for something and are entitled to professional grade support.

If you're not happy, the choice is always yours. Use something else, or contribute something. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Or I'd be happy to take 100k from you and develop webapp support that we can give away to the community. Whatever works for you. If someone developed great webapp support we would include it, to imply that we're blocking that so we can sell something is also offensive. If there was production quality support for WTP we would ship it with M2E. Why don't you write production quality webapp support? Right. Your answers would be exactly the same as ours.

I've honestly had enough of you. Open source users think there is no penalty for acting unreasonably and saying stupid things. If you think that, you'd be wrong especially with me. In concrete terms that means I won't ever be answering any of your questions ever again. I suggest you use Netbeans. This community is obviously not the place for you.

On May 26, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Bouiaw wrote:

Alternatives we use are :
- Jetty-run + debugger attachement
- Netbeans ;-)
- WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
performance
- Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
for better performance

Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
one. I understand why they do that :
- Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
- Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
Maven webapp support.
- WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view

From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
"web application development will continue to be buggy with
Maven/Eclipse".

Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
even it is technically wrong.

Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
- Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
- Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
- Just works and have a real coherence

It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.

You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
and you would be partially right, but the current very low
contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
open source production quality webapp support.

You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
to pay.

This won't work.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
"production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. 
 
 -— Alan Perlis



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Bouiaw
Don't be so aggressive ! You don't agree with my point of view, fine,
but don't consider me as a lazy complaining guy that just consumes
open source projects and consider open source versions of Maven or
m2eclipse as a product. I am not.

I have worked the last 4 years in supporting Maven usage in both
corporate and open source sides, for a lot a developers.
I have spent a lot of time on Maven evangelism, testing and bug
reports on your JIRA projects. Contribution on Open Source project is
not only a matter of code, QA and users feedback are also valuable I
think. Not as much as code contribution, I agree, but I am already
project lead on 2 open source projects, it takes times.

I am clearly in favor of buying Sonatype supports and products in
order to get enterprise grade support and functionalities, and we are
already working with Sonatype on these subjects. This is the game and
we play it. When a big company need Sonatype products, there is
usually some guys like me who have worked a lot under the hood to
promote wide Maven usage.

The purpose of my previous mail, even if a bit provocative, is to say
that I don't think it is good strategy for Maven and m2eclipse
adoption to consider webapp support as a second zone citizen.

Maven and m2eclipse are widely used by a lot of open source projects,
including webapps, where a full open source development stack is
mandatory. When I build an Open Source Java MVC framework, what can I
say to my users. Download Eclipse, subversive, and sorry but you have
to buy m2eclipse pro to Sonatype to use my framework and work on it ?
This is weird.

Obviously when we talk about Open Source side, you do what you want
and if I am not happy I can develop it or switch to Netbeans. But I
have never imply that you will block great webapp support
contribution. But as you said WTP is quite ugly, you have a strong
leadership on the project, and people know that you work on this. I
think this won't make external significant contribution easy on this
part.

My concern is wider than my own needs, and I sincerely think that the
lack of built-in webapp support will harm Maven and hide all the
awesome work you have done around m2eclipse optimizations and
bugfixes, will make people feel that m2eclipse is not robust even if
the core is now really fast, robust and battle tested.

I hope you will be able to open source webapp support soon, at least
for usage on open source war projects that rely on Maven.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I already know selling it will work, we have customers who will pay for it
> and it would be a viable product. Just look at MyEclipse. WTP sucks, they
> sort of fixed it and it sells like crazy. We're actually a few steps ahead
> in that argument already. We want to provide good support if we can, but we
> need to find a way to recover our costs which is how we operate. This is
> what ensure we can continue to work on all the things we do, being judicious
> with resources. And WTP is a huge suck hole of money and time. If we release
> anything it's probably not going to be WTP-based.
> But your argument that we have done all this work for the community (we're
> into the millions of dollars at this point) and so that logically extends to
> us doing more is ridiculous. What would you do if Sonatype wasn't here? And
> that's the way you should really think. We're not here to do everything for
> you for free. We're here to help where we can and in a way that makes sense
> for us to survive as a company. It might even be argued that the community
> would actually be more active if we stopped doing everything all together.
> Sometimes I think we've done a disservice by making people overly reliant on
> us.
> Your argument is frankly offensive. To reason that we're obliged to
> something for free because we always have to me a selfish way of asking for
> you want without having to pay for anything or contributing anything. People
> who value the work of others usually don't forward ill formed ideas to
> public forums. As far as I know you've never contributed anything to this
> project so you have even less right to make such statements. You always
> complain and ask for release dates so you are type of user I find
> non-constructive and useless in a community like this. You seem to think
> this is a product where you have actually paid for something and are
> entitled to professional grade support.
> If you're not happy, the choice is always yours. Use something else, or
> contribute something. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Or I'd be
> happy to take 100k from you and develop webapp support that we can give away
> to the community. Whatever works for you. If someone developed great webapp
> support we would include it, to imply that we're blocking that so we can
> sell something is also offensive. If there was production quality support
> for WTP we would ship it with M2E. Why don't you write production quality
> webapp support? Right. Your answers would be exactly the same as ours.
> I've honestly had enough of you. Open source users think there is no penalty
> for acting unreasonably and saying stupid things. If you think that, you'd
> be wrong especially with me. In concrete terms that means I won't ever be
> answering any of your questions ever again. I suggest you use Netbeans. This
> community is obviously not the place for you.
> On May 26, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Bouiaw wrote:
>
> Alternatives we use are :
> - Jetty-run + debugger attachement
> - Netbeans ;-)
> - WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
> folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
> performance
> - Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
> for better performance
>
> Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
> one. I understand why they do that :
> - Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
> - Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
> JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
> Maven webapp support.
> - WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view
>
> From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
> it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
> effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
> Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
> "web application development will continue to be buggy with
> Maven/Eclipse".
>
> Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
> quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
> even it is technically wrong.
>
> Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
> web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
> is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
> of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
> - Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
> - Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
> - Just works and have a real coherence
>
> It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.
>
> You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
> and you would be partially right, but the current very low
> contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
> strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
> quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
> awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
> open source production quality webapp support.
>
> You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
> In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
> platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
> support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
> to pay.
>
> This won't work.
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
>
> WTP integration
>
> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>
> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>
> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
>
> "production
>
> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>
> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
>
> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>
> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>
> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>
> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
>
> experiences (good/bad)?
>
> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>
> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
>
> WTP for
>
> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>
> Thanks
>
> Olli
>
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>
> --
>
> og
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.
>
>  -— Alan Perlis
>
>
>
>

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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Geisser
I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.

Jochen



On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
> WTP integration
> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>
> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>
> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
> "production
> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>
> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>
> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
> experiences (good/bad)?
>
> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>
> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
> WTP for
> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>
> Thanks
>
> Olli
>
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>
> --
> og
>
>



--
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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Samer Kanjo
In reply to this post by Bouiaw
I would really like to know what it is that WTP provides that is not currently present  in the latest m2e and apparently so valuable that not having this support would be devastating to projects. What is it?

- Samer Kanjo


----- Original Message -----
From: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010, 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Don't be so aggressive ! You don't agree with my point of view, fine,
but don't consider me as a lazy complaining guy that just consumes
open source projects and consider open source versions of Maven or
m2eclipse as a product. I am not.

I have worked the last 4 years in supporting Maven usage in both
corporate and open source sides, for a lot a developers.
I have spent a lot of time on Maven evangelism, testing and bug
reports on your JIRA projects. Contribution on Open Source project is
not only a matter of code, QA and users feedback are also valuable I
think. Not as much as code contribution, I agree, but I am already
project lead on 2 open source projects, it takes times.

I am clearly in favor of buying Sonatype supports and products in
order to get enterprise grade support and functionalities, and we are
already working with Sonatype on these subjects. This is the game and
we play it. When a big company need Sonatype products, there is
usually some guys like me who have worked a lot under the hood to
promote wide Maven usage.

The purpose of my previous mail, even if a bit provocative, is to say
that I don't think it is good strategy for Maven and m2eclipse
adoption to consider webapp support as a second zone citizen.

Maven and m2eclipse are widely used by a lot of open source projects,
including webapps, where a full open source development stack is
mandatory. When I build an Open Source Java MVC framework, what can I
say to my users. Download Eclipse, subversive, and sorry but you have
to buy m2eclipse pro to Sonatype to use my framework and work on it ?
This is weird.

Obviously when we talk about Open Source side, you do what you want
and if I am not happy I can develop it or switch to Netbeans. But I
have never imply that you will block great webapp support
contribution. But as you said WTP is quite ugly, you have a strong
leadership on the project, and people know that you work on this. I
think this won't make external significant contribution easy on this
part.

My concern is wider than my own needs, and I sincerely think that the
lack of built-in webapp support will harm Maven and hide all the
awesome work you have done around m2eclipse optimizations and
bugfixes, will make people feel that m2eclipse is not robust even if
the core is now really fast, robust and battle tested.

I hope you will be able to open source webapp support soon, at least
for usage on open source war projects that rely on Maven.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> I already know selling it will work, we have customers who will pay for it
> and it would be a viable product. Just look at MyEclipse. WTP sucks, they
> sort of fixed it and it sells like crazy. We're actually a few steps ahead
> in that argument already. We want to provide good support if we can, but we
> need to find a way to recover our costs which is how we operate. This is
> what ensure we can continue to work on all the things we do, being judicious
> with resources. And WTP is a huge suck hole of money and time. If we release
> anything it's probably not going to be WTP-based.
> But your argument that we have done all this work for the community (we're
> into the millions of dollars at this point) and so that logically extends to
> us doing more is ridiculous. What would you do if Sonatype wasn't here? And
> that's the way you should really think. We're not here to do everything for
> you for free. We're here to help where we can and in a way that makes sense
> for us to survive as a company. It might even be argued that the community
> would actually be more active if we stopped doing everything all together.
> Sometimes I think we've done a disservice by making people overly reliant on
> us.
> Your argument is frankly offensive. To reason that we're obliged to
> something for free because we always have to me a selfish way of asking for
> you want without having to pay for anything or contributing anything. People
> who value the work of others usually don't forward ill formed ideas to
> public forums. As far as I know you've never contributed anything to this
> project so you have even less right to make such statements. You always
> complain and ask for release dates so you are type of user I find
> non-constructive and useless in a community like this. You seem to think
> this is a product where you have actually paid for something and are
> entitled to professional grade support.
> If you're not happy, the choice is always yours. Use something else, or
> contribute something. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Or I'd be
> happy to take 100k from you and develop webapp support that we can give away
> to the community. Whatever works for you. If someone developed great webapp
> support we would include it, to imply that we're blocking that so we can
> sell something is also offensive. If there was production quality support
> for WTP we would ship it with M2E. Why don't you write production quality
> webapp support? Right. Your answers would be exactly the same as ours.
> I've honestly had enough of you. Open source users think there is no penalty
> for acting unreasonably and saying stupid things. If you think that, you'd
> be wrong especially with me. In concrete terms that means I won't ever be
> answering any of your questions ever again. I suggest you use Netbeans. This
> community is obviously not the place for you.
> On May 26, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Bouiaw wrote:
>
> Alternatives we use are :
> - Jetty-run + debugger attachement
> - Netbeans ;-)
> - WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
> folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
> performance
> - Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
> for better performance
>
> Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
> one. I understand why they do that :
> - Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
> - Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
> JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
> Maven webapp support.
> - WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view
>
> From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
> it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
> effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
> Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
> "web application development will continue to be buggy with
> Maven/Eclipse".
>
> Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
> quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
> even it is technically wrong.
>
> Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
> web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
> is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
> of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
> - Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
> - Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
> - Just works and have a real coherence
>
> It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.
>
> You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
> and you would be partially right, but the current very low
> contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
> strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
> quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
> awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
> open source production quality webapp support.
>
> You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
> In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
> platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
> support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
> to pay.
>
> This won't work.
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
>
> WTP integration
>
> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>
> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>
> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
>
> "production
>
> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>
> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
>
> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>
> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>
> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>
> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
>
> experiences (good/bad)?
>
> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>
> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
>
> WTP for
>
> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>
> Thanks
>
> Olli
>
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>
> --
>
> og
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
> ���http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder, �Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> A�language�that�doesn�t�affect�the�way�you�think�about�programming�is�not�worth�knowing.
>
> �-��Alan�Perlis
>
>
>
>

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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Eric Pascal-2
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
I have been using m2eclipse for quite a while for WTP project and except for the deployment bug (libs are not deployed sometimes, I have to restart eclipse) it suits my needs. I'm working with Flex and Java backend so I need to keep using eclipse and the great integration of m2eclipse prevent me from launching a full maven build everytime I change a piece of code increasing my productivity. I really NEED m2eclipse very badly and I agree that company should pay support for it (I know several in Geneva that will). This plugin has already become a key to several big projects, so I think it's normal that you take advantage of it.
Keep going, we need you.
Thanks

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already know selling it will work, we have customers who will pay for it and it would be a viable product. Just look at MyEclipse. WTP sucks, they sort of fixed it and it sells like crazy. We're actually a few steps ahead in that argument already. We want to provide good support if we can, but we need to find a way to recover our costs which is how we operate. This is what ensure we can continue to work on all the things we do, being judicious with resources. And WTP is a huge suck hole of money and time. If we release anything it's probably not going to be WTP-based.

But your argument that we have done all this work for the community (we're into the millions of dollars at this point) and so that logically extends to us doing more is ridiculous. What would you do if Sonatype wasn't here? And that's the way you should really think. We're not here to do everything for you for free. We're here to help where we can and in a way that makes sense for us to survive as a company. It might even be argued that the community would actually be more active if we stopped doing everything all together. Sometimes I think we've done a disservice by making people overly reliant on us.

Your argument is frankly offensive. To reason that we're obliged to something for free because we always have to me a selfish way of asking for you want without having to pay for anything or contributing anything. People who value the work of others usually don't forward ill formed ideas to public forums. As far as I know you've never contributed anything to this project so you have even less right to make such statements. You always complain and ask for release dates so you are type of user I find non-constructive and useless in a community like this. You seem to think this is a product where you have actually paid for something and are entitled to professional grade support.

If you're not happy, the choice is always yours. Use something else, or contribute something. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Or I'd be happy to take 100k from you and develop webapp support that we can give away to the community. Whatever works for you. If someone developed great webapp support we would include it, to imply that we're blocking that so we can sell something is also offensive. If there was production quality support for WTP we would ship it with M2E. Why don't you write production quality webapp support? Right. Your answers would be exactly the same as ours.

I've honestly had enough of you. Open source users think there is no penalty for acting unreasonably and saying stupid things. If you think that, you'd be wrong especially with me. In concrete terms that means I won't ever be answering any of your questions ever again. I suggest you use Netbeans. This community is obviously not the place for you.

On May 26, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Bouiaw wrote:

Alternatives we use are :
- Jetty-run + debugger attachement
- Netbeans ;-)
- WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
performance
- Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
for better performance

Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
one. I understand why they do that :
- Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
- Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
Maven webapp support.
- WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view

From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
"web application development will continue to be buggy with
Maven/Eclipse".

Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
even it is technically wrong.

Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
- Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
- Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
- Just works and have a real coherence

It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.

You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
and you would be partially right, but the current very low
contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
open source production quality webapp support.

You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
to pay.

This won't work.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
"production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og



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To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. 
 
 -— Alan Perlis




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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by jochen-2

On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:

I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.


We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's a possibility at least.

Jochen



On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
"production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og





--
Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.

 -- Unknown



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Eric Pascal-2

On May 27, 2010, at 6:22 AM, Eric Pascal wrote:

I have been using m2eclipse for quite a while for WTP project and except for the deployment bug (libs are not deployed sometimes, I have to restart eclipse) it suits my needs. I'm working with Flex and Java backend so I need to keep using eclipse and the great integration of m2eclipse prevent me from launching a full maven build everytime I change a piece of code increasing my productivity. I really NEED m2eclipse very badly and I agree that company should pay support for it (I know several in Geneva that will). This plugin has already become a key to several big projects, so I think it's normal that you take advantage of it.
Keep going, we need you.

We're not going anywhere. What I would like people to come to rely on is that if we're involved with anything it will only get better. Which is why I've taken the tact of trying to limit what we do so we can commit to. I want to  at least keep what we've committed to well support and if changes are made they will be improvements. It's also not that I mind investing in a particular technology but WTP is so ill conceived that I honestly don't think it's worth it. I think asking users what containers they use most and then trying to make support directly or through cargo is the better way forward.

Thanks

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already know selling it will work, we have customers who will pay for it and it would be a viable product. Just look at MyEclipse. WTP sucks, they sort of fixed it and it sells like crazy. We're actually a few steps ahead in that argument already. We want to provide good support if we can, but we need to find a way to recover our costs which is how we operate. This is what ensure we can continue to work on all the things we do, being judicious with resources. And WTP is a huge suck hole of money and time. If we release anything it's probably not going to be WTP-based.

But your argument that we have done all this work for the community (we're into the millions of dollars at this point) and so that logically extends to us doing more is ridiculous. What would you do if Sonatype wasn't here? And that's the way you should really think. We're not here to do everything for you for free. We're here to help where we can and in a way that makes sense for us to survive as a company. It might even be argued that the community would actually be more active if we stopped doing everything all together. Sometimes I think we've done a disservice by making people overly reliant on us.

Your argument is frankly offensive. To reason that we're obliged to something for free because we always have to me a selfish way of asking for you want without having to pay for anything or contributing anything. People who value the work of others usually don't forward ill formed ideas to public forums. As far as I know you've never contributed anything to this project so you have even less right to make such statements. You always complain and ask for release dates so you are type of user I find non-constructive and useless in a community like this. You seem to think this is a product where you have actually paid for something and are entitled to professional grade support.

If you're not happy, the choice is always yours. Use something else, or contribute something. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Or I'd be happy to take 100k from you and develop webapp support that we can give away to the community. Whatever works for you. If someone developed great webapp support we would include it, to imply that we're blocking that so we can sell something is also offensive. If there was production quality support for WTP we would ship it with M2E. Why don't you write production quality webapp support? Right. Your answers would be exactly the same as ours.

I've honestly had enough of you. Open source users think there is no penalty for acting unreasonably and saying stupid things. If you think that, you'd be wrong especially with me. In concrete terms that means I won't ever be answering any of your questions ever again. I suggest you use Netbeans. This community is obviously not the place for you.

On May 26, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Bouiaw wrote:

Alternatives we use are :
- Jetty-run + debugger attachement
- Netbeans ;-)
- WTP used in external web modules (you just specify webapp root
folder) + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell for better
performance
- Sysdeo Tomcat plugin + Maven package eventually used in Maven shell
for better performance

Again, I think Sonatype strategy about webapp support is not a good
one. I understand why they do that :
- Sell a lot of m2eclipse pro
- Push some external contributors, eventually other Java company like
JBoss, Oracle or SpringSource to contribute a real production quality
Maven webapp support.
- WTP is fat, slow both from user and developer point of view

From my point of view, make web application developement a "pay for
it" option is a very dangerous game, that will have a lot of side
effects. For example, people won't see all the awesome job Jason and
Sonatype guys have done around maven 3 and m2eclipse have done because
"web application development will continue to be buggy with
Maven/Eclipse".

Web application is the main usage of m2eclipse. Giving something beta
quality to the community will make the whole m2eclipse beta quality
even it is technically wrong.

Eclipse has currently a big problem with WTP that has no real usable
web editors except Aptana, adding this other issue for web developers
is bad. I support Eclipse/m2eclipse for a lot of time and with a lot
of energy. But these days, we are switching to Netbeans that :
- Has a wonderful Maven support, including webapps
- Have an outstanding JS/CSS/HTML editors
- Just works and have a real coherence

It is not a choice for us, it is a constraint.

You will surely answer that community should contribute to fix this,
and you would be partially right, but the current very low
contribution on this subject is also a consequence of Sonatype very
strong control on all Maven ecosystem. You make Maven/m2eclipse
quickly evolve, and that's great. Technically you have done some
awesome work. But I think you should assume your strong leadership and
open source production quality webapp support.

You won't succeed anything by making m2eclipse pro mandatory for this.
In our companies, we are ok to pay for Nexus Pro, your future dev
platform solution, a better jrebel integration, but pro only webapp
support transform a free and open source platform to a product we have
to pay.

This won't work.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse extras
WTP integration
will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.

See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.

From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the missing
"production
quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.

But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development with
maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?

I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are your
experiences (good/bad)?

To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):

Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually use
WTP for
anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?

Thanks

Olli


[1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy

--
og



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. 
 
 -— Alan Perlis





Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

the course of true love never did run smooth ...

 -- Shakespeare



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Fafou31-2
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
CONTENTS DELETED
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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Tim Schwenk
You took the words right out of my mouth...  I'm not in a position to offer an opinion on the general quality of WTP, but from my experience, it works well enough that I've never thought "gee, this sucks."  For WAS, there really is no legitimate alternative to WTP - at least AFAIK.  The irony here is that the RAD/WAS user base is probably the single group that could be almost absolutely counted on to *pay* for quality WTP support, and yet we seem to be ignored.  I guess that we're a small enough minority to safely ignore, but on the other hand, I'd bet that license fees from RAD users alone could fund a good portion of the development cost for WTP support.  

Honestly, and I've said this before, the existing m2eclipse WTP support works extremely well for me w/ RAD 7.5.5 and WAS 7.0.0.x test servers.  I keep hearing that it's not production quality, but apart from the lack of documentation, I've simply never had a problem with it.  Once you understand what it's doing, it just works.  I can't believe I'm asking this, but is it possible that the WTP in RAD is different/better than plain vanilla Eclipse?  Or is it that I'm just very lucky?

Is it possible that we could get an informal show of hands by RAD/WAS users who want/need WTP integration?  We need it and there are ~30-40 developers in my organization that would require licenses if it was a pay-only solution.  I have no idea what pricing would be like, but I'd say that we would probably pay a similar fee to the cost of JRebel - so, like $150-$250/year/seat would probably be acceptable.

Oh, and by the way, I'm happily using 0.10.0 with it's WTP support, so there's no reason why you need to stay on the 0.9.9-DEV version.  Just make sure RAD is updated to at least 7.5.5 (I think 7.5.5.1 is current), and you're all set.

-Tim

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:59 AM, fabrice.mercier1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
to a newer release.
I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS


jvanzyl wrote:
>
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
>> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
>> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
>>
>
> We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> a possibility at least.
>
>> Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
>>> extras
>>> WTP integration
>>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>>>
>>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>>>
>>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
>>> missing
>>> "production
>>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>>>
>>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
>>> with
>>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>>>
>>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
>>> your
>>> experiences (good/bad)?
>>>
>>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>>>
>>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
>>> use
>>> WTP for
>>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Olli
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>>>
>>> --
>>> og
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>
>


-----
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Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE
http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-tp28681941p28693895.html
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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Timothy Mcginnis

Here's another RAD 7.5.5 user.  We have it in our organization with about 20 developers.  We are still on 0.9.8 though.  I thought we would go directly to 0.10.0 but I ran into problems with the release plugin not supporting the embedded maven when doing a fork.

Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Tim Schwenk" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/27/2010 01:54 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration





You took the words right out of my mouth...  I'm not in a position to offer an opinion on the general quality of WTP, but from my experience, it works well enough that I've never thought "gee, this sucks."  For WAS, there really is no legitimate alternative to WTP - at least AFAIK.  The irony here is that the RAD/WAS user base is probably the single group that could be almost absolutely counted on to *pay* for quality WTP support, and yet we seem to be ignored.  I guess that we're a small enough minority to safely ignore, but on the other hand, I'd bet that license fees from RAD users alone could fund a good portion of the development cost for WTP support.  

Honestly, and I've said this before, the existing m2eclipse WTP support works extremely well for me w/ RAD 7.5.5 and WAS 7.0.0.x test servers.  I keep hearing that it's not production quality, but apart from the lack of documentation, I've simply never had a problem with it.  Once you understand what it's doing, it just works.  I can't believe I'm asking this, but is it possible that the WTP in RAD is different/better than plain vanilla Eclipse?  Or is it that I'm just very lucky?

Is it possible that we could get an informal show of hands by RAD/WAS users who want/need WTP integration?  We need it and there are ~30-40 developers in my organization that would require licenses if it was a pay-only solution.  I have no idea what pricing would be like, but I'd say that we would probably pay a similar fee to the cost of JRebel - so, like $150-$250/year/seat would probably be acceptable.

Oh, and by the way, I'm happily using 0.10.0 with it's WTP support, so there's no reason why you need to stay on the 0.9.9-DEV version.  Just make sure RAD is updated to at least 7.5.5 (I think 7.5.5.1 is current), and you're all set.

-Tim


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:59 AM, fabrice.mercier1 <beufmerc@...> wrote:

Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
to a newer release.
I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS



jvanzyl wrote:
>
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
>> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
>> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
>>
>
> We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> a possibility at least.
>
>> Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
>> <
oliver.geisser@...> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
>>> extras
>>> WTP integration
>>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>>>
>>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>>>
>>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
>>> missing
>>> "production
>>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>>>
>>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
>>> with
>>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>>>
>>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
>>> your
>>> experiences (good/bad)?
>>>
>>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>>>
>>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
>>> use
>>> WTP for
>>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Olli
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>>>
>>> --
>>> og
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
>
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>
>


-----
http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
Architect
Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE

http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com
--
View this message in context:
http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-tp28681941p28693895.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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==============================================================================
This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the above addressees only.  If you
receive this message in error please delete or destroy this message and/or attachments.  

The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging
in the unauthorized use of this message.
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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Randy Burgess-7
We are a Fortune 25 company and we have *7,000* developers. We are standardizing on Maven for builds and development. RAD/RSA is our leading IDE standard for Java developers. Since I am one of the approvers for development standards I can make a strong case for a high quality tool, if it exists.  

Randy Burgess


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Timothy Mcginnis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here's another RAD 7.5.5 user.  We have it in our organization with about 20 developers.  We are still on 0.9.8 though.  I thought we would go directly to 0.10.0 but I ran into problems with the release plugin not supporting the embedded maven when doing a fork.

Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Tim Schwenk" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/27/2010 01:54 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration





You took the words right out of my mouth...  I'm not in a position to offer an opinion on the general quality of WTP, but from my experience, it works well enough that I've never thought "gee, this sucks."  For WAS, there really is no legitimate alternative to WTP - at least AFAIK.  The irony here is that the RAD/WAS user base is probably the single group that could be almost absolutely counted on to *pay* for quality WTP support, and yet we seem to be ignored.  I guess that we're a small enough minority to safely ignore, but on the other hand, I'd bet that license fees from RAD users alone could fund a good portion of the development cost for WTP support.  

Honestly, and I've said this before, the existing m2eclipse WTP support works extremely well for me w/ RAD 7.5.5 and WAS 7.0.0.x test servers.  I keep hearing that it's not production quality, but apart from the lack of documentation, I've simply never had a problem with it.  Once you understand what it's doing, it just works.  I can't believe I'm asking this, but is it possible that the WTP in RAD is different/better than plain vanilla Eclipse?  Or is it that I'm just very lucky?

Is it possible that we could get an informal show of hands by RAD/WAS users who want/need WTP integration?  We need it and there are ~30-40 developers in my organization that would require licenses if it was a pay-only solution.  I have no idea what pricing would be like, but I'd say that we would probably pay a similar fee to the cost of JRebel - so, like $150-$250/year/seat would probably be acceptable.

Oh, and by the way, I'm happily using 0.10.0 with it's WTP support, so there's no reason why you need to stay on the 0.9.9-DEV version.  Just make sure RAD is updated to at least 7.5.5 (I think 7.5.5.1 is current), and you're all set.

-Tim


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:59 AM, fabrice.mercier1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
to a newer release.
I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS



jvanzyl wrote:
>
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
>> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
>> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
>>
>
> We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> a possibility at least.
>
>> Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
>> <
[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
>>> extras
>>> WTP integration
>>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>>>
>>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>>>
>>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
>>> missing
>>> "production
>>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>>>
>>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
>>> with
>>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>>>
>>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
>>> your
>>> experiences (good/bad)?
>>>
>>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>>>
>>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
>>> use
>>> WTP for
>>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Olli
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>>>
>>> --
>>> og
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
>
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>
>


-----
http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
Architect
Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE

http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com
--
View this message in context:
http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-tp28681941p28693895.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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==============================================================================
This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the above addressees only.  If you
receive this message in error please delete or destroy this message and/or attachments.  

The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging
in the unauthorized use of this message.
==============================================================================


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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
On May 27, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Randy Burgess wrote:

We are a Fortune 25 company and we have *7,000* developers. We are standardizing on Maven for builds and development. RAD/RSA is our leading IDE standard for Java developers. Since I am one of the approvers for development standards I can make a strong case for a high quality tool, if it exists.  


I not actually sure what you're trying to say. I think most people could make a strong case for high quality WTP integration if it existed. But that doesn't change the fact  that it doesn't exist and it will require a couple months of solid effort of development and testing to make it work properly for enough target runtimes to make it useful.

Randy Burgess


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Timothy Mcginnis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here's another RAD 7.5.5 user.  We have it in our organization with about 20 developers.  We are still on 0.9.8 though.  I thought we would go directly to 0.10.0 but I ran into problems with the release plugin not supporting the embedded maven when doing a fork.

Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Tim Schwenk" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/27/2010 01:54 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration





You took the words right out of my mouth...  I'm not in a position to offer an opinion on the general quality of WTP, but from my experience, it works well enough that I've never thought "gee, this sucks."  For WAS, there really is no legitimate alternative to WTP - at least AFAIK.  The irony here is that the RAD/WAS user base is probably the single group that could be almost absolutely counted on to *pay* for quality WTP support, and yet we seem to be ignored.  I guess that we're a small enough minority to safely ignore, but on the other hand, I'd bet that license fees from RAD users alone could fund a good portion of the development cost for WTP support.  

Honestly, and I've said this before, the existing m2eclipse WTP support works extremely well for me w/ RAD 7.5.5 and WAS 7.0.0.x test servers.  I keep hearing that it's not production quality, but apart from the lack of documentation, I've simply never had a problem with it.  Once you understand what it's doing, it just works.  I can't believe I'm asking this, but is it possible that the WTP in RAD is different/better than plain vanilla Eclipse?  Or is it that I'm just very lucky?

Is it possible that we could get an informal show of hands by RAD/WAS users who want/need WTP integration?  We need it and there are ~30-40 developers in my organization that would require licenses if it was a pay-only solution.  I have no idea what pricing would be like, but I'd say that we would probably pay a similar fee to the cost of JRebel - so, like $150-$250/year/seat would probably be acceptable.

Oh, and by the way, I'm happily using 0.10.0 with it's WTP support, so there's no reason why you need to stay on the 0.9.9-DEV version.  Just make sure RAD is updated to at least 7.5.5 (I think 7.5.5.1 is current), and you're all set.

-Tim


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:59 AM, fabrice.mercier1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
to a newer release.
I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS



jvanzyl wrote:
>
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
>> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
>> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
>>
>
> We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> a possibility at least.
>
>> Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
>> <
[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
>>> extras
>>> WTP integration
>>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>>>
>>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>>>
>>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
>>> missing
>>> "production
>>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>>>
>>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
>>> with
>>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>>>
>>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
>>> your
>>> experiences (good/bad)?
>>>
>>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>>>
>>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
>>> use
>>> WTP for
>>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Olli
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>>>
>>> --
>>> og
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
>
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>
>


-----
http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
Architect
Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE

http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com
--
View this message in context:
http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-tp28681941p28693895.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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==============================================================================
This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the above addressees only.  If you
receive this message in error please delete or destroy this message and/or attachments.  

The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging
in the unauthorized use of this message.
==============================================================================



Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.

 -- Unknown



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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Randy Burgess-7
I’m just saying that there is a market for a solid product that includes WTP integration and my company would more than likely be one of them, and we have a LOT of developers. More paying customers means that Sonatype makes more money, as it should. I want to make sure that we have the tools necessary for Maven to succeed in our organization and one of my (and others too) responsibilities is approving developer tools and this is one I would push very hard for. It’s not a tough sell if you’re using Maven.

Randy Burgess


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 27, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Randy Burgess wrote:

We are a Fortune 25 company and we have *7,000* developers. We are standardizing on Maven for builds and development. RAD/RSA is our leading IDE standard for Java developers. Since I am one of the approvers for development standards I can make a strong case for a high quality tool, if it exists.  


I not actually sure what you're trying to say. I think most people could make a strong case for high quality WTP integration if it existed. But that doesn't change the fact  that it doesn't exist and it will require a couple months of solid effort of development and testing to make it work properly for enough target runtimes to make it useful.

Randy Burgess


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Timothy Mcginnis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here's another RAD 7.5.5 user.  We have it in our organization with about 20 developers.  We are still on 0.9.8 though.  I thought we would go directly to 0.10.0 but I ran into problems with the release plugin not supporting the embedded maven when doing a fork.

Tim McGinnis
717 720-1962
Web Development
AES/PHEAA



From: "Tim Schwenk" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 05/27/2010 01:54 PM
Subject: Re: [m2eclipse-user] What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration





You took the words right out of my mouth...  I'm not in a position to offer an opinion on the general quality of WTP, but from my experience, it works well enough that I've never thought "gee, this sucks."  For WAS, there really is no legitimate alternative to WTP - at least AFAIK.  The irony here is that the RAD/WAS user base is probably the single group that could be almost absolutely counted on to *pay* for quality WTP support, and yet we seem to be ignored.  I guess that we're a small enough minority to safely ignore, but on the other hand, I'd bet that license fees from RAD users alone could fund a good portion of the development cost for WTP support.  

Honestly, and I've said this before, the existing m2eclipse WTP support works extremely well for me w/ RAD 7.5.5 and WAS 7.0.0.x test servers.  I keep hearing that it's not production quality, but apart from the lack of documentation, I've simply never had a problem with it.  Once you understand what it's doing, it just works.  I can't believe I'm asking this, but is it possible that the WTP in RAD is different/better than plain vanilla Eclipse?  Or is it that I'm just very lucky?

Is it possible that we could get an informal show of hands by RAD/WAS users who want/need WTP integration?  We need it and there are ~30-40 developers in my organization that would require licenses if it was a pay-only solution.  I have no idea what pricing would be like, but I'd say that we would probably pay a similar fee to the cost of JRebel - so, like $150-$250/year/seat would probably be acceptable.

Oh, and by the way, I'm happily using 0.10.0 with it's WTP support, so there's no reason why you need to stay on the 0.9.9-DEV version.  Just make sure RAD is updated to at least 7.5.5 (I think 7.5.5.1 is current), and you're all set.

-Tim


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:59 AM, fabrice.mercier1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
to a newer release.
I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS



jvanzyl wrote:
>
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
>> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
>> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
>>
>
> We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> a possibility at least.
>
>> Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
>> <
[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
>>> extras
>>> WTP integration
>>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
>>>
>>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
>>>
>>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
>>> missing
>>> "production
>>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
>>>
>>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
>>> with
>>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
>>>
>>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
>>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
>>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
>>> your
>>> experiences (good/bad)?
>>>
>>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
>>>
>>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
>>> use
>>> WTP for
>>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Olli
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
>>>
>>> --
>>> og
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
>
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>
>


-----
http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
Architect
Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE

http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com
--
View this message in context:
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Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.

 -- Unknown




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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Heiko Kopp
In reply to this post by Fafou31-2

Hello,

just to follow up on this topic. We are currently moving our complete development for WebSphere from ANT-Based builds to maven. m2eclipse has helped alot and its WTP integration is working ok so far. There are some problems we run into like wrong MANIFEST.MF files for skinny wars having utility projects attached, but after all its working. If you simply remove it or abandon the WebSphere users by choosing interfaces that do not support the WebSphere userland, you might loose a group of people that actually would pay for a well made integration, regardless whether the underlying implementation sucks or not.

Best regards

--
Dr.-Ing. Heiko Kopp
Mercedes-Benz Bank
E-Mail: [hidden email]


[hidden email] schrieb am 27.05.2010 15:59:34:

>
> Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
> Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
> to a newer release.
> I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS
>
>
> jvanzyl wrote:
> >
> >
> > On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> >
> >> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
> >> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
> >> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
> >>
> >
> > We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> > viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> > see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> > but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> > impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> > willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> > there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> > a possibility at least.
> >
> >> Jochen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
> >>> extras
> >>> WTP integration
> >>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
> >>>
> >>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
> >>>
> >>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
> >>> missing
> >>> "production
> >>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
> >>>
> >>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
> >>> with
> >>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
> >>>
> >>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
> >>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
> >>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
> >>> your
> >>> experiences (good/bad)?
> >>>
> >>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
> >>>
> >>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
> >>> use
> >>> WTP for
> >>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Olli
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> og
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
> >>
> >>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jason van Zyl
> > Founder,  Apache Maven
> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
> >
> >  -- Unknown
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -----
> http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
> Architect
> Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE
> http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com  
> --
> View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-
> recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-
> tp28681941p28693895.html
> Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

If you are not the intended addressee, please inform us immediately that you have received this e-mail in error, and delete it. We thank you for your cooperation.

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Re: What is the recommended alternative to m2eclipse extras WTP integration

Jason van Zyl-2
On May 28, 2010, at 7:36 AM, [hidden email] wrote:


Hello,

just to follow up on this topic. We are currently moving our complete development for WebSphere from ANT-Based builds to maven. m2eclipse has helped alot and its WTP integration is working ok so far. There are some problems we run into like wrong MANIFEST.MF files for skinny wars having utility projects attached, but after all its working. If you simply remove it or abandon the WebSphere users by choosing interfaces that do not support the WebSphere userland, you might loose a group of people that actually would pay for a well made integration, regardless whether the underlying implementation sucks or not.


We're not abandoning it, actually Fred does all of the work and he doesn't work for Sonatype so if it's working for you then the credit goes to Fred. But Sonatype does run the project and it's not something we're willing to commit and support in its current form. We still have quite a few things to fix before the 1.0 release. Once that is released we'll built upon that to improve other parts of the tooling.

Best regards

--
Dr.-Ing. Heiko Kopp
Mercedes-Benz Bank
E-Mail: [hidden email]


[hidden email] schrieb am 27.05.2010 15:59:34:

>
> Ok but for Websphere User in RAD7.5 IDE how can we do ?
> Cargo does not support WAS so I use 0.9.9-DEV it works but I can not update
> to a newer release.
> I am agree WTP sucks but I am open to others solution for WAS
>
>
> jvanzyl wrote:
> >
> >
> > On May 27, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> >
> >> I am perfectly happy with the combination of the Tomcat sysdeo plugin,
> >> which is configured to use the war plugins folder in the target
> >> directory as a webapp and m2eclipse. Absolutely no need for WTP.
> >>
> >
> > We also feel that working against the containers is probably the most
> > viable. But if we use an abstraction the more I look at Cargo the more I
> > see it might be a better option for abstraction. Not quite an exact fit
> > but we could hack up the code, where with WTP that would be pretty much
> > impossible. There is also support for a ton of containers. So I would be
> > willing to integrate and it and hook in the container support that exists
> > there and then we could build our commercial support on top of that. It's
> > a possibility at least.
> >
> >> Jochen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Oliver Geisser
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> by reading through the mailing list I've learned that the m2eclipse
> >>> extras
> >>> WTP integration
> >>> will not be officially released and/or supported by Sonatype.
> >>>
> >>> See for example this [1] e-mail from Jason Van Zyl for an explanation.
> >>>
> >>> From my personal experience I agree with the statements about the
> >>> missing
> >>> "production
> >>> quality" of the WTP/m2eclipse extras WTP integration combination.
> >>>
> >>> But then the question is: what is the alternative for web development
> >>> with
> >>> maven, Eclipse and m2eclipse?
> >>>
> >>> I would like to get some feedback regarding alternatives like "mvn
> >>> jetty:run" or "Run Jetty run"
> >>> or something else I may not know. What else are you using and what are
> >>> your
> >>> experiences (good/bad)?
> >>>
> >>> To Jason (or someone else from Sonatype):
> >>>
> >>> Inside [1] there is also the info that "At Sonatype we don't actually
> >>> use
> >>> WTP for
> >>> anything [...]". Can you explain what you use instead?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Olli
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/xpyelqdgblnrk4wy
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> og
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
> >>
> >>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jason van Zyl
> > Founder,  Apache Maven
> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
> >
> >  -- Unknown
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -----
> http://old.nabble.com/file/u1297858/ft.gif
> Architect
> Almerys, activité santé d'Orange Business Services, TOULOUSE
> http://www.orange-business.com  http://www.orange-business.com  
> --
> View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/What-is-the-
> recommended-alternative-to-m2eclipse-extras-WTP--integration-
> tp28681941p28693895.html
> Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

If you are not the intended addressee, please inform us immediately that you have received this e-mail in error, and delete it. We thank you for your cooperation.


Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.

  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society



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