PMC change explanation?

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
The bottom line is that this is likely easy to resolve very quickly. A call between a representative Apache board member, a Sonatype representative, and a secretary to agree on the actions, and carry them out. That seems like a pretty easy plan of action. Anything else just says to me that the board doesn't really care what happens to the Maven project. I think Sonatype has been reasonable, I think I can even dig up an email that says your legal counsel thinks we have been reasonable. Just put the issue to rest and one of you call Wayne. It's absurd that it's come to this. The Apache Board can put this issue to rest, or permanently screw the project. I don't think it's in anyone else's hands really except the Apache Board.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:

> On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
>> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
>> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
>> "Hadoop World".
>
> That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
> Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
> attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
> service mark.
>
>> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...
>
> FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.
>
> Doug

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.

 -- Paul Graham



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Mark Struberg

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Mark Struberg wrote:

> Jason!
>
> I bet you are well aware that the PMC is actively working on an MOU since a few weeks. (I even was roughly walking thru the draft with a Sonatype employee yesterday).
>

I'm not well aware at all. How can anyone at Sonatype be aware of anything on the Maven PMC is doing? You're trying to reach a resolution without us being a part of it. You need to talk to Wayne and as far as I know you didn't talk to him yesterday.

> So please relax a bit and stop throwing oil on the fire.

I'm pointing out the facts, and giving you the fastest way to resolve the issue.

>
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
> --- On Fri, 6/17/11, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
>> To: "Jim Jagielski" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Doug Cutting" <[hidden email]>, "Maven Developers List" <[hidden email]>, "Apache Board" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Friday, June 17, 2011, 1:31 PM
>> Jim, just get on the phone and sort
>> it out. It's not that hard.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>>> Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases
>> you mention
>>> below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in
>> tracking ALL
>>> trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant
>> with those
>>> entities in which they are a part of as far as
>> employment (I
>>> would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark
>> Thomas'
>>> work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert
>> stuff).
>>>
>>> If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good
>> Work. If your
>>> intent was to actually provide informative and not
>> misleading
>>> data, then I would have to give you a D-.
>>>
>>> Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume
>> that you
>>> are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?
>>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are
>> strictly talking about trademarks here then people should
>> understand what that discussion is about.
>>>>
>>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven
>> Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug
>> Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum
>> of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World".
>> These service marks are for services provided to the
>> community and not intended for commercial purposes. One
>> could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera
>> used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's
>> involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the
>> community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's
>> not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see
>> an example of the usage here:
>>>>
>>>> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
>>>>
>>>> You will also note that what Sonatype is
>> repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not
>> "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera
>> seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache
>> Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over
>> the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses,
>> all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera,
>> a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache
>> Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing
>> things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and
>> no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company.
>> Apache is purportedly and organization based on the
>> participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect
>> any targeted action against a company. Doug should know
>> better than anyone how these things work, working toward and
>> eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>>>>
>>>> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be
>> fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred
>> while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as
>> Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no
>> severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as
>> egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a
>> way for companies involved with Apache to get some
>> recognition for the work they do and to promote their
>> involvement with the projects they've helped make
>> successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What
>> I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these
>> exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding
>> trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other
>> companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In
>> addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional
>> for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even
>> though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this
>> forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco,
>> not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC
>> should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a
>> whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself
>> being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>>>>
>>>> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and
>> Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine
>> disclosing that part of the story.
>>>>
>>>> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion
>> about the other major issue then again, I will leave the
>> initiation of that discussion to them.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For many months the board has been asking the
>> Maven project to obtain
>>>>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's
>> "Maven" trademark.
>>>>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.
>> The Sonatype website states
>>>>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the
>> ASF, not that "Maven"
>>>>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.
>> Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>>>>> that this trademark belongs to Apache,
>> Sonatype employees are unable to
>>>>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and
>> Apache at the same time.  So
>>>>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from
>> the Maven PMC in order to
>>>>> remove them from conflict.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe this strictly falls within the
>> purview of the Apache Board to
>>>>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and
>> Shane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the
>> business that has been
>>>>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment
>> to Maven users and our pursuit
>>>>>> of innovation with respect to
>> Maven-related technologies has not
>>>>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for
>> a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>>>>> I find it odd that consistently
>> excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the
>> Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>>>>> these are people who have drastically
>> improved and moved Maven
>>>>>>> forward.  It's very concerning
>> that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>>>>> is no longer committing as he has done
>> very useful, fantastic work.
>>>>>>> These events are very concerning for
>> the forward progress of Maven.
>>>>>>> The strong temptations for competitive
>> products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>>>>> allow Maven progress to stop;
>> particularly the best progress to date
>>>>>>> of the past year.  These events
>> are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is
>> the plan forward behind this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all have problems. How we deal with
>> them is a measure of our worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Unknown
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase
>> it, the more it will
>>>> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other
>> things, it will come
>>>> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>>>>
>>>> -- Thoreau
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> A party which is not afraid of letting culture,
>> business, and welfare go to ruin completely can
>> be omnipotent for a while.
>>
>>   -- Jakob Burckhardt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
Email coming your way.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> Not sure what there is to "sort out"... But of course,
> you are also welcome to get on the phone and sort it
> out as well.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:31 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> Jim, just get on the phone and sort it out. It's not that hard.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>>> Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases you mention
>>> below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in tracking ALL
>>> trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant with those
>>> entities in which they are a part of as far as employment (I
>>> would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark Thomas'
>>> work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert stuff).
>>>
>>> If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good Work. If your
>>> intent was to actually provide informative and not misleading
>>> data, then I would have to give you a D-.
>>>
>>> Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume that you
>>> are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?
>>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion is about.
>>>>
>>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World". These service marks are for services provided to the community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see an example of the usage here:
>>>>
>>>> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
>>>>
>>>> You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>>>>
>>>> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>>>>
>>>> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.
>>>>
>>>> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
>>>>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
>>>>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
>>>>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
>>>>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>>>>> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
>>>>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
>>>>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
>>>>> remove them from conflict.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>>>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>>>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>>>>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>>>>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>>>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>>>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Unknown
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
>>>> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
>>>> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>>>>
>>>> -- Thoreau
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> A party which is not afraid of letting culture,
>> business, and welfare go to ruin completely can
>> be omnipotent for a while.
>>
>>  -- Jakob Burckhardt
>>
>>
>>
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.

 -- Unknown



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
The below shows that you are extremely out of touch regarding
what has been going on. As such, I have no problems with
ignoring it.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> The bottom line is that this is likely easy to resolve very quickly. A call between a representative Apache board member, a Sonatype representative, and a secretary to agree on the actions, and carry them out. That seems like a pretty easy plan of action. Anything else just says to me that the board doesn't really care what happens to the Maven project. I think Sonatype has been reasonable, I think I can even dig up an email that says your legal counsel thinks we have been reasonable. Just put the issue to rest and one of you call Wayne. It's absurd that it's come to this. The Apache Board can put this issue to rest, or permanently screw the project. I don't think it's in anyone else's hands really except the Apache Board.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>
>> On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
>>> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
>>> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
>>> "Hadoop World".
>>
>> That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
>> Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
>> attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
>> service mark.
>>
>>> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...
>>
>> FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.
>>
>> Doug
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>
>  -- Paul Graham
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
Jim,

Your misunderstanding of someone else's point of view and dismissing it out of hand without any further discussion is what got us here in the first place. You have no problems ignoring whatever you feel like which generally makes it hard to arrive at a resolution. Your job as an ASF Board member is to facilitate discussion not stifle it. It is your repeated canceling of face to face meetings and lack of communication over the span of months that has left us where we are. You shirk your responsibility as the board member primarily responsible for this debacle and then basically refuse to be accountable by just saying you're going to ignore me. If you want to ignore me that's fine, but don't ignore the problem you've heavily contributed to forming. I don't need to be involved but the board, Mark Struberg (who appears to be responsible now from the Maven PMC side), Larry and Wayne can get this resolved with one call. Then it's done and we can move forward and do what's best for the Maven project and more importantly Maven users.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> The below shows that you are extremely out of touch regarding
> what has been going on. As such, I have no problems with
> ignoring it.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> The bottom line is that this is likely easy to resolve very quickly. A call between a representative Apache board member, a Sonatype representative, and a secretary to agree on the actions, and carry them out. That seems like a pretty easy plan of action. Anything else just says to me that the board doesn't really care what happens to the Maven project. I think Sonatype has been reasonable, I think I can even dig up an email that says your legal counsel thinks we have been reasonable. Just put the issue to rest and one of you call Wayne. It's absurd that it's come to this. The Apache Board can put this issue to rest, or permanently screw the project. I don't think it's in anyone else's hands really except the Apache Board.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
>>>> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
>>>> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
>>>> "Hadoop World".
>>>
>>> That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
>>> Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
>>> attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
>>> service mark.
>>>
>>>> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...
>>>
>>> FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>>
>> -- Paul Graham
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Selfish deeds are the shortest path to self destruction.

 -- The Seven Samuari, Akira Kurosawa



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Re: PMC change explanation?

jdcasey
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
FWIW, I'm glad the PMC has had the chance to participate in saying what
it wants in the MOU with Sonatype. Unfortunately, such participation has
to happen as we have time, and since we're a project of volunteers it
may not happen on the timescales that companies are used to. So, if the
buck has been passed to the PMC (which seems a little strange to me),
then I'm glad.

Also, I for one don't feel like this project is being left in the lurch.
We've seen good progress on ideas and code while all of this has been
going on. I regret that this discussion has - and continues to -
escalate through all the inflammatory remarks. If we're going to find a
way to coexist peacefully after this is settled, those sorts of things
only make that job harder.

On 6/17/11 9:23 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:36 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> Jason, the board has not leaked the information, so rest assured
>> it was not from us.
>
> I'm not sure what information you're referring to.
>
>> Also rest assured that no one questions
>> Sonatypes committment to the users nor your pursuit of innovation.
>> We only question why Sonatype refuses to attribute Maven as
>> a mark of the ASF, even after I was assured by Wayne after
>> lunch that Sonatype would make those changes while we come up
>> with an acceptable MOU regarding maven.org <http://maven.org>.
>
> No, that's not what I recall being the order of events. But everything I
> know is second hand and broken telephone doesn't help anyone. You should
> get on the phone with Wayne and clarify because there have been repeated
> miscommunications and misunderstandings because you fail to follow up in
> the timely manner, or don't follow up at all. As a result of that you've
> left this project in the lurch and made Sonatype feel like an
> un-welcomed part of this community. Why would we want to participate
> here when we are treated like no other company involved at Apache has
> ever been treated?
>
> It would have taken you all of a day to settle the MOU issue when you
> talked to Wayne last but you passed the buck to the Maven PMC instead of
> dealing with it yourself. You took this out of the hands of the Maven
> PMC after we had a resolution so I have no idea you passed the issue
> back to them instead of driving the issue to resolution yourself. Three
> weeks has passed and nothing has happened. It may very be that what are
> understanding and what you relayed to the Maven PMC is not in sync. Get
> on the phone with Wayne put Larry Rosen on the phone as secretary,
> record the plan of action that will resolve the issue at hand and be
> done with it. You've made it several more orders of magnitude more
> complicated than it ever needed to be.
>
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board
>>> to explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>
>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>
>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our
>>> pursuit of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has
>>> not stopped, and will not stop.
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC. This is concerning as
>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>> forward. It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>> of the past year. These events are detrimental. For us uninformed,
>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder, Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>
>>> -- Unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder, Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.
>
> -- Unknown
>
>
>

--
John Casey
Developer, PMC Member - Apache Maven (http://maven.apache.org)
Blog: http://www.johnofalltrades.name/

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
Jason, all I can say in response is that I am impressed with
both your reinterpretation of history as well as the size
of your stugots in somehow placing the "blame" on the board
and myself.

We have made incredible progress, and your sweeping and baseless
arguments are impeding and damaging that. I would encourage
you to, for the benefit of the community, restrain yourself.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Your misunderstanding of someone else's point of view and dismissing it out of hand without any further discussion is what got us here in the first place. You have no problems ignoring whatever you feel like which generally makes it hard to arrive at a resolution. Your job as an ASF Board member is to facilitate discussion not stifle it. It is your repeated canceling of face to face meetings and lack of communication over the span of months that has left us where we are. You shirk your responsibility as the board member primarily responsible for this debacle and then basically refuse to be accountable by just saying you're going to ignore me. If you want to ignore me that's fine, but don't ignore the problem you've heavily contributed to forming. I don't need to be involved but the board, Mark Struberg (who appears to be responsible now from the Maven PMC side), Larry and Wayne can get this resolved with one call. Then it's done and we can move forward and do what's best for the Maven project and more importantly Maven users.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> The below shows that you are extremely out of touch regarding
>> what has been going on. As such, I have no problems with
>> ignoring it.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>
>>> The bottom line is that this is likely easy to resolve very quickly. A call between a representative Apache board member, a Sonatype representative, and a secretary to agree on the actions, and carry them out. That seems like a pretty easy plan of action. Anything else just says to me that the board doesn't really care what happens to the Maven project. I think Sonatype has been reasonable, I think I can even dig up an email that says your legal counsel thinks we have been reasonable. Just put the issue to rest and one of you call Wayne. It's absurd that it's come to this. The Apache Board can put this issue to rest, or permanently screw the project. I don't think it's in anyone else's hands really except the Apache Board.
>>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
>>>>> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
>>>>> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
>>>>> "Hadoop World".
>>>>
>>>> That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
>>>> Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
>>>> attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
>>>> service mark.
>>>>
>>>>> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>>>
>>> -- Paul Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Selfish deeds are the shortest path to self destruction.
>
>  -- The Seven Samuari, Akira Kurosawa
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Shane Curcuru-2
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
As an introduction to those here in Maven land, I'm the VP of Brand
Management at the Apache Software Foundation, and I and my officer's
committee at trademarks@ are responsible for setting brand policy for
all Apache projects, including trademark usage by third parties.

Since this includes comments specifically about Apache trademark policy,
I thought it would be important to clarify or correct some things.
People may be interested in reading Apache's formal trademark policy, as
well as several other linked policies about domains, events, etc.:

   http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking
> about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion
> is about.
>
> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
> "Hadoop World".

I believe these are significantly different things, and it is
disingenuous to compare them as such.

For one, Cloudera has worked constructively with the Apache Conferences
Committee on the branding for their Hadoop World event, and actively and
productively worked with Apache on securing the MOU; in fact it was
recently updated and renewed for a second year by both sides.  I have
not seen the same kind of behavior on Sonatype's side on the core
attribution issue.

Secondly, event branding is a very different thing than services
branding, especially in the case of Maven Central, where the service is
such a central part of how our Maven software works.

> These service marks are for services provided to the
> community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue
> "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and
> raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an
> event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice
> that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see
> an example of the usage here:
>
> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on

Since that's an OStatic news article, it's OStatic's responsibility, not
Cloudera's.  While news articles without sufficient attributions or link
backs to Apache project's home pages are certainly an issue in terms of
both the details of trademarks as well as the overall effect of their
reputation, news articles are a fundamentally different thing than
corporate homepages, or product or download pages.

> You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is
> to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above
> Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop
> in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site
> you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site.

Both the Hadoop PMC and trademarks@ welcome specific reports of third
parties improperly using Apache marks by third parties.  If it's a news
article, like that OStatic article, then it's probably best to address
it to press@ though.

> This all
> seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is
> on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing
> things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe
> action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly
> and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one
> wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know
> better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually
> becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>
> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems
> to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim
> Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache
> Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of
> TomcatExpert site.

In both cases either trademarks@, concom@, or the relevant PMCs have
been working with the third parties in question, and those third parties
have responded constructively.  These are not board issues; the board
has delegated these responsibilities, and the board only steps in when
necessary.  Such as when a third party does not comply with requests.

>
> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious
> misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies
> involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to
> promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make
> successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take
> exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem
> selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly,
> and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is
> not.

I'm not quite sure how to address your statement "Apache policies
regarding trademarks are made up on the fly" other than to say I find it
somewhat offensive.  We have a number of web pages detailing our
trademark policies, and I assure you, they were not "made up on the
fly", rather were a process of multiple ASF members, officers, and ASF
counsel over a period of months.

> In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for
> not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache
> Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company
> as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource.

Again, the board only steps in when trademarks@ and the relevant PMCs
can't make progress.  And re: WANdisco, you really want to pull that
card out?  The Subversion PMC called them out on their poor behavior
with Apache marks very publicly and officially here:

https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/apache_subversion_to_wandisco_1

The Subversion PMC pulled this kind of response together without
assistance in a few weeks, and WANdisco made substantiative changes in
response to it in fairly short order.  This is in wide variance to both
the Maven PMC's behavior in past years, and in particular in wide
variance to Sonatype's behavior on specific issues.

> In this regard
> the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted
> a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a
> collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>
> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the
> conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.

Actually, I think you missed the most important issue, which is
Sonatype's continued and explicit refusal as an organization to
recognize the "MAVEN" mark with respect to our Apache Maven product.
This explicit refusal of such a key point about respect of Apache brands
and a willingness to give proper credit to the Apache communities that
build our software is something I have not seen in any other company in
the past two years I've served in this role.

I have been glad to see a number of other positive branding changes and
attributions that Sonatype has made as a result of our requests in the
past few months.  I'm certainly appreciative of the tremendous amount of
work that Brian Fox has put in on this issue.  But when your
organization is explicitly refusing to recognize that this community and
the ASF have been the true source for Maven software for the past many
years, well, I find your umbrage to be somewhat misplaced.

- Shane

>
> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major
> issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>
>> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
>> remove them from conflict.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>
>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>
>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>
>>> -- Unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>
>  -- Thoreau
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski

On Jun 17, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> Jason, all I can say in response is that I am impressed with
> both your reinterpretation of history as well as the size
> of your stugots in somehow placing the "blame" on the board
> and myself.
>

As I am impressed with yours. When things are not done in the open or documented everything can be left to interpretation and that's what's happened here. For months there have been back channel conversations, with the Maven PMC only being recently involved. The board gave the Maven PMC the power to negotiate and took that power away when they didn't like the results. Then the board proceeded to take unilateral action which excludes Sonatype from the project. I consider not being able to vote on anything related to the project being excluded from the project. During your negotiations with any other group about trademarks the board has never taken an action like this. An action many members of the ASF believe to run counter to what the ASF stands for.

> We have made incredible progress, and your sweeping and baseless
> arguments are impeding and damaging that. I would encourage
> you to, for the benefit of the community, restrain yourself.
>

I think I have just cause for being mildly irritated and I don't think I'm saying anything that's unreasonable, and I'm trying to speak from my first hand experience. Again, because much of these conversations happened in back channels we are in the situation we are in. This is why I removed myself from the Maven PMC in January as I was frustrated, annoyed and hoped that if I were not present the negotiations would be expedited as I'm generally seen as holding some sway over Sonatype and legal trademark law in some mysterious way.

I am speaking for myself (and not trying to represent Sonatype's view point in any way) and so I might not be privy to all information, but I believed that as an act of good faith individuals would be restored to the Maven PMC as part of the resolution process. I thought that would happen three weeks ago after your meeting with Wayne. I have been embroiled with the board in arguments about Maven since its inception many years ago, and I fear that conflict has fueled some of the behaviour from the board. I do not control Sonatype, nor do I hold sway over any of its employees and I believe all of them have truly acted in good faith and remained attentive to the discussions, especially Brian. The action taken was uncalled for and though there's a lot I might not agree with at Apache I think a line was crossed with respect to fairness toward people who have been many of the driving forces behind the Maven project.

> On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Your misunderstanding of someone else's point of view and dismissing it out of hand without any further discussion is what got us here in the first place. You have no problems ignoring whatever you feel like which generally makes it hard to arrive at a resolution. Your job as an ASF Board member is to facilitate discussion not stifle it. It is your repeated canceling of face to face meetings and lack of communication over the span of months that has left us where we are. You shirk your responsibility as the board member primarily responsible for this debacle and then basically refuse to be accountable by just saying you're going to ignore me. If you want to ignore me that's fine, but don't ignore the problem you've heavily contributed to forming. I don't need to be involved but the board, Mark Struberg (who appears to be responsible now from the Maven PMC side), Larry and Wayne can get this resolved with one call. Then it's done and we can move forward and do what's best for the Maven project and more importantly Maven users.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>>> The below shows that you are extremely out of touch regarding
>>> what has been going on. As such, I have no problems with
>>> ignoring it.
>>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>
>>>> The bottom line is that this is likely easy to resolve very quickly. A call between a representative Apache board member, a Sonatype representative, and a secretary to agree on the actions, and carry them out. That seems like a pretty easy plan of action. Anything else just says to me that the board doesn't really care what happens to the Maven project. I think Sonatype has been reasonable, I think I can even dig up an email that says your legal counsel thinks we have been reasonable. Just put the issue to rest and one of you call Wayne. It's absurd that it's come to this. The Apache Board can put this issue to rest, or permanently screw the project. I don't think it's in anyone else's hands really except the Apache Board.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
>>>>>> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
>>>>>> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
>>>>>> "Hadoop World".
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
>>>>> Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
>>>>> attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
>>>>> service mark.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>>>>
>>>> -- Paul Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Selfish deeds are the shortest path to self destruction.
>>
>> -- The Seven Samuari, Akira Kurosawa
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.

  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
Jason,

Your synopsis is pretty much complete and total hogwash. Except for
the board action, the PMC has been very, very involved for quite a
long time. Since you are not on the PMC, maybe you didn't know that.
In which case, please don't attempt to "imagine" what is happening;
reality is sooo much more accurate.

The PMC can choose to "divulge" anything it wants to...

The truth is rarely as sexy as conspiracy ramblings are.

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