PMC change explanation?

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PMC change explanation?

Jeff Jensen
Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Lukas Theussl-4

Only speaking for myself, I would like to stress that I stepped back
from the PMC for purely personal reasons. Though it certainly
facilitated my decision, the events that occupied the PMC at the time
are in no causal relation to my retirement.

Said events will hopefully be explained by some representative of the
PMC or the Apache board, all maven devs and the community have a right
to know what's going on.

-Lukas


Jeff Jensen wrote:

> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Jeff Jensen
Jeff,

I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.

Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been transacted on private lists.

Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped, and will not stop.

On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:

> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.

 -- Unknown



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Manfred Moser
I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
site seem to be updated.

http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html

I would have expected more transparency from Apache.

manfred

> Jeff,
>
> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>
> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
> transacted on private lists.
>
> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped,
> and will not stop.
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>
>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>
>


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RE: PMC change explanation?

mgainty

Good Afternoon Manfred

from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
                            JASON (aka god)
                                 |
                                 v
                           Everyone else

(pull up a pew)

Bedankt,
Martin
______________________________________________
Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
 Ez az
üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.

Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.


> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
>
> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
> results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
> site seem to be updated.
>
> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
>
> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
>
> manfred
>
> > Jeff,
> >
> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
> > explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
> >
> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
> > transacted on private lists.
> >
> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
> > of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped,
> > and will not stop.
> >
> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
> >> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
> >> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
> >> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
> >> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> >> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
> >> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
> >> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
> >> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
> >> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> >> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jason van Zyl
> > Founder,  Apache Maven
> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
> >
> >  -- Unknown
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
     
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RE: PMC change explanation?

Manfred Moser
Hm... sure Jason had and still has lots of influence. But so does Linus
and so do other BDFL's. Imho the Maven project has tons of good people
involved in the community around the core and the plugins. Jason is one of
them and there are MANY others. There should be cooperation and open
communication happening as much as possible.

Clearly there is room for improvement.

manfred


>
> Good Afternoon Manfred
>
> from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
>                             JASON (aka god)
>                                  |
>                                  v
>                            Everyone else
>
> (pull up a pew)
>
> Bedankt,
> Martin
> ______________________________________________
> Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und
> Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
>  Ez az
> üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
> jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
> semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
> könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
> ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le
> destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire
> informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la
> copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et
> n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que
> les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne
> pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
>> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>>
>> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
>> results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
>> site seem to be updated.
>>
>> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
>>
>> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
>>
>> manfred
>>
>> > Jeff,
>> >
>> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board
>> to
>> > explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>> >
>> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>> > transacted on private lists.
>> >
>> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our
>> pursuit
>> > of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>> stopped,
>> > and will not stop.
>> >
>> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>> >> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>> >> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning
>> as
>> >> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>> >> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as
>> Benjamin
>> >> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>> >> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>> >> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>> >> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>> >> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>> >> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------
>> > Jason van Zyl
>> > Founder,  Apache Maven
>> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>> >
>> >  -- Unknown
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Benson Margulies
In reply to this post by mgainty
Martin,

I don't think that your message helps anyone here. Jason's email is a
very gracious acknowledgement of the governance of the Apache Software
Foundation. The changes in the Maven PMC result from a complex
situation, and many people are working hard behind the scenes to
resolve that situation. It's not for me to elaborate here. I would
join others in appealing for patience.

--benson margulies


On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Martin Gainty <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Good Afternoon Manfred
>
> from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
>                            JASON (aka god)
>                                 |
>                                 v
>                           Everyone else
>
> (pull up a pew)
>
> Bedankt,
> Martin
> ______________________________________________
> Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
>  Ez az
> üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
> jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
> semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
> könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
> ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
>> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>>
>> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
>> results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
>> site seem to be updated.
>>
>> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
>>
>> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
>>
>> manfred
>>
>> > Jeff,
>> >
>> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>> > explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>> >
>> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>> > transacted on private lists.
>> >
>> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>> > of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped,
>> > and will not stop.
>> >
>> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>> >> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>> >> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>> >> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>> >> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>> >> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>> >> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>> >> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>> >> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>> >> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>> >> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------
>> > Jason van Zyl
>> > Founder,  Apache Maven
>> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>> >
>> >  -- Unknown
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jesse McConnell-2
Yeah, Jason is a standup guy and that didn't come off very well at all.

Whatever is going on I wouldn't worry too much about maven in general.

cheers,
jesse

--
jesse mcconnell
[hidden email]



On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 14:28, Benson Margulies <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Martin,
>
> I don't think that your message helps anyone here. Jason's email is a
> very gracious acknowledgement of the governance of the Apache Software
> Foundation. The changes in the Maven PMC result from a complex
> situation, and many people are working hard behind the scenes to
> resolve that situation. It's not for me to elaborate here. I would
> join others in appealing for patience.
>
> --benson margulies
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Martin Gainty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Good Afternoon Manfred
>>
>> from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
>>                            JASON (aka god)
>>                                 |
>>                                 v
>>                           Everyone else
>>
>> (pull up a pew)
>>
>> Bedankt,
>> Martin
>> ______________________________________________
>> Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
>>  Ez az
>> üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
>> jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
>> készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
>> semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
>> könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
>> ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
>>
>> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
>> Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
>>
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> CC: [hidden email]
>>>
>>> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
>>> results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
>>> site seem to be updated.
>>>
>>> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
>>>
>>> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
>>>
>>> manfred
>>>
>>> > Jeff,
>>> >
>>> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>> > explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>> >
>>> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>> > transacted on private lists.
>>> >
>>> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>> > of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped,
>>> > and will not stop.
>>> >
>>> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>> >> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>> >> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>> >> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>> >> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>> >> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>> >> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>> >> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>> >> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>> >> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>> >> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>> >>
>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Jason van Zyl
>>> > Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>> >
>>> >  -- Unknown
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>

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RE: PMC change explanation?

mgainty
In reply to this post by Benson Margulies

granted..maybe im old fashioned but I believe the person who created the project *should* have a say

operating under the assumption "everything good" takes time what is taking place to cause this shift?

bedankt,
Martin Gainty
______________________________________________
Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
 Ez az
üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.

Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.


> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:28:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Martin,
>
> I don't think that your message helps anyone here. Jason's email is a
> very gracious acknowledgement of the governance of the Apache Software
> Foundation. The changes in the Maven PMC result from a complex
> situation, and many people are working hard behind the scenes to
> resolve that situation. It's not for me to elaborate here. I would
> join others in appealing for patience.
>
> --benson margulies
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Martin Gainty <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Good Afternoon Manfred
> >
> > from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
> >                            JASON (aka god)
> >                                 |
> >                                 v
> >                           Everyone else
> >
> > (pull up a pew)
> >
> > Bedankt,
> > Martin
> > ______________________________________________
> > Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
> >  Ez az
> > üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
> > jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> > készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
> > semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
> > könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
> > ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
> >
> > Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> > Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
> >
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> CC: [hidden email]
> >>
> >> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote or the
> >> results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor does the web
> >> site seem to be updated.
> >>
> >> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
> >>
> >> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
> >>
> >> manfred
> >>
> >> > Jeff,
> >> >
> >> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
> >> > explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
> >> >
> >> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
> >> > transacted on private lists.
> >> >
> >> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
> >> > of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped,
> >> > and will not stop.
> >> >
> >> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
> >> >> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
> >> >> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
> >> >> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
> >> >> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> >> >> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
> >> >> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
> >> >> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
> >> >> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
> >> >> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> >> >> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Jason
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Jason van Zyl
> >> > Founder,  Apache Maven
> >> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
> >> >
> >> >  -- Unknown
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
     
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Re: PMC change explanation?

brettporter
Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeff Jensen
Just to make a couple of things clear, that weren't stated elsewhere in the thread:

On 16/06/2011, at 11:42 PM, Jeff Jensen wrote:

> It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.

There has been no change to who has commit privileges in Maven. Whether Benjamin (or any other committer) chooses to commit or not is his choice, for whatever reasons they might have. My guess is he's probably been busy with other things.

> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?


There's no "private plans" regarding the development of Maven. Things occasionally come up, but any discussion in private that veers to development or technical details gets pushed over to this list pretty quick. A recent example was the concerns about the lack of releases on the core (in contrast to the plugins), and thinking about what it takes to get more people involved. That is hardly a new thing - it's been the case as long as I've been in the project :)

If anyone is concerned about the progress any part of the project is making, then by all means step up and get involved - there's plenty to be done!

Cheers,
Brett

--
Brett Porter
[hidden email]
http://brettporter.wordpress.com/
http://au.linkedin.com/in/brettporter





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Re: PMC change explanation?

Daniel  Kulp
In reply to this post by mgainty
On Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:36:45 PM Martin Gainty wrote:
> granted..maybe im old fashioned but I believe the person who created the
> project *should* have a say

Unless that person decided they no longer want a say.   Jason resigned from
the PMC back in January.   He voluntarily removed himself and was not part of
this board action.

I should also point out his choice of words is "interesting":

"Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit of
innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped, and
will not stop."

Notice there is nothing in there expressing a commitment to the Maven project
here at Apache.   Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but i found that
concerning.


Dan


>
> operating under the assumption "everything good" takes time what is taking
> place to cause this shift?
>
> bedankt,
> Martin Gainty
> ______________________________________________
> Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und
> Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité Ez az
> üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
> jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
> semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
> könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
> ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen. Ce message
> est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le
> destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire
> informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie
> de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura
> pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email
> peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter
> aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
>
> > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:28:11 -0400
> > Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> > I don't think that your message helps anyone here. Jason's email is a
> > very gracious acknowledgement of the governance of the Apache Software
> > Foundation. The changes in the Maven PMC result from a complex
> > situation, and many people are working hard behind the scenes to
> > resolve that situation. It's not for me to elaborate here. I would
> > join others in appealing for patience.
> >
> > --benson margulies
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Martin Gainty <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > > Good Afternoon Manfred
> > >
> > > from my understanding the maven hierarchy looks like:
> > >                            JASON (aka
> > >                            god)
> > >                            
> > >                                 v
> > >                          
> > >                           Everyone else
> > >
> > > (pull up a pew)
> > >
> > > Bedankt,
> > > Martin
> > > ______________________________________________
> > > Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und
> > > Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
> > >
> > >  Ez az
> > >
> > > üzenet bizalmas.  Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük,
> > > hogy
> > > jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> > > készítése nem megengedett.  Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál
> > > és
> > > semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs.  Mivel az electronikus
> > > üzenetek
> > > könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem
> > > terhelhet
> > > ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
> > >
> > > Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> > > Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede
> > > unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig.
> > > Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und
> > > entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten
> > > Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den
> > > Inhalt uebernehmen. Ce message est confidentiel et peut être
> > > privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te
> > > demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur.
> > > N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est
> > > interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas
> > > n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les
> > > email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne
> > > pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
> > >
> > >> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:24:35 -0700
> > >> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> > >> From: [hidden email]
> > >> To: [hidden email]
> > >> CC: [hidden email]
> > >>
> > >> I find it somewhat bewildering that there is no post of the vote
> > >> or the results on the dev and users mailing lists I can see. Nor
> > >> does the web site seem to be updated.
> > >>
> > >> http://maven.apache.org/team-list.html
> > >>
> > >> I would have expected more transparency from Apache.
> > >>
> > >> manfred
> > >>
> > >> > Jeff,
> > >> >
> > >> > I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache
> > >> > Board to explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
> > >> >
> > >> > Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has
> > >> > been
> > >> > transacted on private lists.
> > >> >
> > >> > Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and
> > >> > our pursuit of innovation with respect to Maven-related
> > >> > technologies has not stopped, and will not stop.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> > >> >> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC
> > >> >> shakeup? I find it odd that consistently excellent
> > >> >> contributors such as Lukas, Brian, et al are suddenly not
> > >> >> on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as these are people
> > >> >> who have drastically improved and moved Maven forward.
> > >> >> It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as
> > >> >> Benjamin is no longer committing as he has done very
> > >> >> useful, fantastic work. These events are very concerning
> > >> >> for the forward progress of Maven. The strong temptations
> > >> >> for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not allow Maven
> > >> >> progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date of
> > >> >> the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us
> > >> >> uninformed, what happened, why is it good, what is the plan
> > >> >> forward behind this?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >> --------- To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > >> >> [hidden email]
> > >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Jason
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > Jason van Zyl
> > >> > Founder,  Apache Maven
> > >> > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of
> > >> > our worth.
> > >> >
> > >> >  -- Unknown
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ---
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email]
http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
Jason, the board has not leaked the information, so rest assured
it was not from us. Also rest assured that no one questions
Sonatypes committment to the users nor your pursuit of innovation.
We only question why Sonatype refuses to attribute Maven as
a mark of the ASF, even after I was assured by Wayne after
lunch that Sonatype would make those changes while we come up
with an acceptable MOU regarding maven.org.

On Jun 16, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>
> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been transacted on private lists.
>
> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped, and will not stop.
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>
>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Doug Cutting
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
remove them from conflict.

Doug

On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>
> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
> transacted on private lists.
>
> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
> stopped, and will not stop.
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>
>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>
>  -- Unknown
>
>
>

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion is about.

What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World". These service marks are for services provided to the community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see an example of the usage here:

http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on

You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.

We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.

Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.

So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.

If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:

> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
> remove them from conflict.
>
> Doug
>
> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>
>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>> transacted on private lists.
>>
>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>
>> -- Unknown
>>
>>
>>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
and sit softly on your shoulder ...

 -- Thoreau



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases you mention
below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in tracking ALL
trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant with those
entities in which they are a part of as far as employment (I
would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark Thomas'
work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert stuff).

If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good Work. If your
intent was to actually provide informative and not misleading
data, then I would have to give you a D-.

Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume that you
are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion is about.
>
> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World". These service marks are for services provided to the community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see an example of the usage here:
>
> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
>
> You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>
> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
>
> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>
> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.
>
> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>
>> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
>> remove them from conflict.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>
>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>
>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>
>>> -- Unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>
>  -- Thoreau
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Doug Cutting
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
On 06/17/2011 03:03 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service
> mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has
> been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark
> "Hadoop World".

That's a separate issue from the "Maven" software product trademark.
Let's please not confuse them.  The action I described and the
attribution the ASF seeks is related to the product trademark, not any
service mark.

> ... Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting ...

FWIW, I am not a Cloudera founder, just an employee.

Doug

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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski

On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:36 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> Jason, the board has not leaked the information, so rest assured
> it was not from us.

I'm not sure what information you're referring to.

> Also rest assured that no one questions
> Sonatypes committment to the users nor your pursuit of innovation.
> We only question why Sonatype refuses to attribute Maven as
> a mark of the ASF, even after I was assured by Wayne after
> lunch that Sonatype would make those changes while we come up
> with an acceptable MOU regarding maven.org.

No, that's not what I recall being the order of events. But everything I know is second hand and broken telephone doesn't help anyone. You should get on the phone with Wayne and clarify because there have been repeated miscommunications and misunderstandings because you fail to follow up in the timely manner, or don't follow up at all. As a result of that you've left this project in the lurch and made Sonatype feel like an un-welcomed part of this community. Why would we want to participate here when we are treated like no other company involved at Apache has ever been treated?

It would have taken you all of a day to settle the MOU issue when you talked to Wayne last but you passed the buck to the Maven PMC instead of dealing with it yourself. You took this out of the hands of the Maven PMC after we had a resolution so I have no idea you passed the issue back to them instead of driving the issue to resolution yourself. Three weeks has passed and nothing has happened. It may very be that what are understanding and what you relayed to the Maven PMC is not in sync. Get on the phone with Wayne put Larry Rosen on the phone as secretary, record the plan of action that will resolve the issue at hand and be done with it. You've made it several more orders of magnitude more complicated than it ever needed to be.

>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>
>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been transacted on private lists.
>>
>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not stopped, and will not stop.
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>
>> -- Unknown
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead.

 -- Unknown



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jason van Zyl-2
In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
Jim, just get on the phone and sort it out. It's not that hard.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases you mention
> below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in tracking ALL
> trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant with those
> entities in which they are a part of as far as employment (I
> would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark Thomas'
> work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert stuff).
>
> If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good Work. If your
> intent was to actually provide informative and not misleading
> data, then I would have to give you a D-.
>
> Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume that you
> are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion is about.
>>
>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World". These service marks are for services provided to the community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see an example of the usage here:
>>
>> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
>>
>> You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>>
>> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
>>
>> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>>
>> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.
>>
>> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>
>>> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
>>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
>>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
>>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
>>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>>> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
>>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
>>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
>>> remove them from conflict.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>> Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>>
>>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>>
>>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>>
>>>> -- Unknown
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
>> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
>> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>>
>> -- Thoreau
>>
>>
>>
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

A party which is not afraid of letting culture,
business, and welfare go to ruin completely can
be omnipotent for a while.

  -- Jakob Burckhardt



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Re: PMC change explanation?

Jim Jagielski
Not sure what there is to "sort out"... But of course,
you are also welcome to get on the phone and sort it
out as well.

On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:31 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Jim, just get on the phone and sort it out. It's not that hard.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases you mention
>> below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in tracking ALL
>> trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant with those
>> entities in which they are a part of as far as employment (I
>> would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark Thomas'
>> work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert stuff).
>>
>> If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good Work. If your
>> intent was to actually provide informative and not misleading
>> data, then I would have to give you a D-.
>>
>> Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume that you
>> are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>
>>> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are strictly talking about trademarks here then people should understand what that discussion is about.
>>>
>>> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World". These service marks are for services provided to the community and not intended for commercial purposes. One could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see an example of the usage here:
>>>
>>> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
>>>
>>> You will also note that what Sonatype is repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses, all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera, a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company. Apache is purportedly and organization based on the participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect any targeted action against a company. Doug should know better than anyone how these things work, working toward and eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
>>>
>>> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
>>>
>>> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a way for companies involved with Apache to get some recognition for the work they do and to promote their involvement with the projects they've helped make successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco, not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
>>>
>>> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine disclosing that part of the story.
>>>
>>> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion about the other major issue then again, I will leave the initiation of that discussion to them.
>>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
>>>
>>>> For many months the board has been asking the Maven project to obtain
>>>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's "Maven" trademark.
>>>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply.  The Sonatype website states
>>>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the ASF, not that "Maven"
>>>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF.  Since Sonatype seems to dispute
>>>> that this trademark belongs to Apache, Sonatype employees are unable to
>>>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and Apache at the same time.  So
>>>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from the Maven PMC in order to
>>>> remove them from conflict.
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe this strictly falls within the purview of the Apache Board to
>>>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and Shane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the business that has been
>>>>> transacted on private lists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment to Maven users and our pursuit
>>>>> of innovation with respect to Maven-related technologies has not
>>>>> stopped, and will not stop.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
>>>>>> I find it odd that consistently excellent contributors such as Lukas,
>>>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
>>>>>> these are people who have drastically improved and moved Maven
>>>>>> forward.  It's very concerning that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
>>>>>> is no longer committing as he has done very useful, fantastic work.
>>>>>> These events are very concerning for the forward progress of Maven.
>>>>>> The strong temptations for competitive products, a la Gradle, do not
>>>>>> allow Maven progress to stop; particularly the best progress to date
>>>>>> of the past year.  These events are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
>>>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is the plan forward behind this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> We all have problems. How we deal with them is a measure of our worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Unknown
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
>>> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
>>> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>>>
>>> -- Thoreau
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> A party which is not afraid of letting culture,
> business, and welfare go to ruin completely can
> be omnipotent for a while.
>
>   -- Jakob Burckhardt
>
>
>


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Re: PMC change explanation?

Mark Struberg
In reply to this post by Jason van Zyl-2
Jason!

I bet you are well aware that the PMC is actively working on an MOU since a few weeks. (I even was roughly walking thru the draft with a Sonatype employee yesterday).

So please relax a bit and stop throwing oil on the fire.

LieGrue,
strub

--- On Fri, 6/17/11, Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jason van Zyl <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: PMC change explanation?
> To: "Jim Jagielski" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Doug Cutting" <[hidden email]>, "Maven Developers List" <[hidden email]>, "Apache Board" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, June 17, 2011, 1:31 PM
> Jim, just get on the phone and sort
> it out. It's not that hard.
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> > Jason, please stop confusing the issue. In both cases
> you mention
> > below, the PMCs have been very VERY involved in
> tracking ALL
> > trademark issues, and have been even more vigilant
> with those
> > entities in which they are a part of as far as
> employment (I
> > would encourage you to look over, for example, Mark
> Thomas'
> > work the last *week* regarding the tomcatexpert
> stuff).
> >
> > If your intent is to enflame the issue, then Good
> Work. If your
> > intent was to actually provide informative and not
> misleading
> > data, then I would have to give you a D-.
> >
> > Since this is from your Sonatype Email, can I assume
> that you
> > are sending this with your Sonatype hat on?
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> >> Doug, this is only part of the story but if we are
> strictly talking about trademarks here then people should
> understand what that discussion is about.
> >>
> >> What Sonatype was seeking was the use of "Maven
> Central" as a service mark in very much the same way Doug
> Cutting's company, Cloudera, has been granted a memorandum
> of understanding (MOU) for the service mark "Hadoop World".
> These service marks are for services provided to the
> community and not intended for commercial purposes. One
> could argue "Hadoop World" is a marketing event for Cloudera
> used to drive sales and raise awareness about Cloudera's
> involvement in Hadoop, but it's an event held for the
> community and it's free of charge. You'll notice that's it's
> not "Apache Hadoop World", it's "Hadoop World". You can see
> an example of the usage here:
> >>
> >> http://ostatic.com/blog/cloudera-announces-hadoop-world-and-hadoop-marches-on
> >>
> >> You will also note that what Sonatype is
> repeatedly accused of which is to use "Maven" and not
> "Apache Maven" you will notice in the link above Cloudera
> seems to be exempt from. Not a single mention of Apache
> Hadoop in that press release. Actually if you walk all over
> the Cloudera site you'll find similar, if not worse abuses,
> all over their site. This all seems to be fine for Cloudera,
> a company founded by Doug Cutting who is on the Apache
> Board. Cloudera knows this and has been gradually fixing
> things, but they were granted an MOU for "Hadoop World" and
> no severe action was taken against Cloudera as a company.
> Apache is purportedly and organization based on the
> participation of individuals so really one wouldn't expect
> any targeted action against a company. Doug should know
> better than anyone how these things work, working toward and
> eventually becoming a member of the Apache Board.
> >>
> >> We also have the example http://www.tomcatexpert.com/ which also seems to be
> fine, and you'll note this original infraction occurred
> while Jim Jagielski was involved with SpringSource. Jim, as
> Doug, is on the Apache Board. The Apache board took no
> severe action in the case of TomcatExpert site.
> >>
> >> Now, I don't find any of the cases cited above as
> egregious misappropriation of Apache property, but simply a
> way for companies involved with Apache to get some
> recognition for the work they do and to promote their
> involvement with the projects they've helped make
> successful. These uses never particularly bothered me. What
> I take exception to is that the fact that grants of these
> exceptions seem selective, Apache policies regarding
> trademarks are made up on the fly, and that what other
> companies have been granted at Apache, Sonatype is not. In
> addition, the Apache Board felt the Maven PMC dysfunctional
> for not being more forceful with this trademark issue even
> though the Apache Board, by example, has never been this
> forceful with any other company as a whole. Not Wandisco,
> not Cloudera, not SpringSource. In this regard the Maven PMC
> should have been disbanded, but instead the board targeted a
> whole company. Which by Apache's own philosophy of itself
> being a collection of individuals seems rather odd to me.
> >>
> >> So that's a summary of the trademark issue and
> Doug started the conversation with trademarks so I'm fine
> disclosing that part of the story.
> >>
> >> If Doug and Jim want to continue the discussion
> about the other major issue then again, I will leave the
> initiation of that discussion to them.
> >>
> >> On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Doug Cutting wrote:
> >>
> >>> For many months the board has been asking the
> Maven project to obtain
> >>> proper attribution from Sonatype for Apache's
> "Maven" trademark.
> >>> Sonatype has thus far failed to comply. 
> The Sonatype website states
> >>> only that "Apache Maven" is a trademark of the
> ASF, not that "Maven"
> >>> alone is also a trademark of the ASF. 
> Since Sonatype seems to dispute
> >>> that this trademark belongs to Apache,
> Sonatype employees are unable to
> >>> simultaneously legally act for Sonatype and
> Apache at the same time.  So
> >>> the ASF has removed Sonatype employees from
> the Maven PMC in order to
> >>> remove them from conflict.
> >>>
> >>> Doug
> >>>
> >>> On 06/16/2011 05:11 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >>>> Jeff,
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe this strictly falls within the
> purview of the Apache Board to
> >>>> explain. In particular Jim, Doug and
> Shane.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only the board has the right to reveal the
> business that has been
> >>>> transacted on private lists.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rest assured that's Sonatype's commitment
> to Maven users and our pursuit
> >>>> of innovation with respect to
> Maven-related technologies has not
> >>>> stopped, and will not stop.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jeff Jensen
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Is there a forthcoming explanation for
> a seemingly Maven PMC shakeup?
> >>>>> I find it odd that consistently
> excellent contributors such as Lukas,
> >>>>> Brian, et al are suddenly not on the
> Maven PMC.  This is concerning as
> >>>>> these are people who have drastically
> improved and moved Maven
> >>>>> forward.  It's very concerning
> that a heavy committer such as Benjamin
> >>>>> is no longer committing as he has done
> very useful, fantastic work.
> >>>>> These events are very concerning for
> the forward progress of Maven.
> >>>>> The strong temptations for competitive
> products, a la Gradle, do not
> >>>>> allow Maven progress to stop;
> particularly the best progress to date
> >>>>> of the past year.  These events
> are detrimental.  For us uninformed,
> >>>>> what happened, why is it good, what is
> the plan forward behind this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Jason
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Jason van Zyl
> >>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
> >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> We all have problems. How we deal with
> them is a measure of our worth.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Unknown
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jason
> >>
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> Founder,  Apache Maven
> >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase
> it, the more it will
> >> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other
> things, it will come
> >> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
> >>
> >> -- Thoreau
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> A party which is not afraid of letting culture,
> business, and welfare go to ruin completely can
> be omnipotent for a while.
>
>   -- Jakob Burckhardt
>
>
>
>

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